Diagnostic Adventures.

Submitted: Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 10:56
ThreadID: 63252 Views:2857 Replies:9 FollowUps:6
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Love to learn from actual experiences but many are best viewed when behind you.

This one is about the car being hard to start and isn't quite behind us yet.
But this year I'm determined not to miss getting to Vic gathering so we are fighting back.

The start of our 4 day melbourne cup weekend was a pre-commitment to breaking thru a rock ledge on 4wd track I'm constructing, before then heading off to camp overnight to test out a rudimentry double bed setup I have built inside our Nissan Patrol.

After some hours rock breaking, I started the car and it hesitated on startup and I though maybe I had run the battery down a bit and forgot about it.

A few hours later we are packed and ready for a short run to anywhere in the bush to camp overnight and test out sleeping in the car.

Again it hesitated, turned over slowly then the starter motor picked up speed and away we go.

Drive a hour to a town in Vic called Marysville where we mixed in amongst enormous crowds at the various sidewalk coffee shops.
This time car started instantly, and we head up to camp near a place called Jericho as the seasonal road closures ended last weekend and all the tracks are open.

Whoops, one then two access tracks still had locked gates so we detour to a place called Woods point and got some ice-creams.
Its now 4 hours into our 2 hour trip, but the battery seems to have charged and the minor problem is forgotten about.

An hour later we arrive at a secluded river frontage camp spot that the huge number of other campers we passed have not yet found and we check it out, however on re-positioning the car
it again gives the whrr whhr sound before it fires up.
Now I'm getting unsure and a bit concerned so we abandon the quiet camp spot and decide to move onto to one of the many busy sites along the Goulburn river, and park near a group of other Nissan 4wders.

Nice spot, so we have a chardonnay before setting up camp.
We are under some trees and just then the first wave of a storm comes in with wind gusts and it starts to rain.

Decide to move car away from trees, jump in and you guessed it. Whrr! Whrr! from the starter and this time it did not pick up speed and start.

Ok! , I've had enough and pull out our secret weapon, a hand sized 400g li-ion batt pack which we always carry as a backup and wack it across the car battery, this little gem can push nearly
200 amps by itself and yep the car started.

The car has a good accurate voltmeter and I knew that it had been charging properly during the previous drive so I was quite surprized at what had happened and unsure about the problem know.
The battery, a spiral wound heavy, Exide Orbital, heavy duty unit was only 3 years old but I suppose it could have gone.

Not being comfortable about my diagnosis we elected to play safe and drive 4 hours home and still sleep in the car in our own driveway overnight.
Along the way I would not turn the cars engine off.
90 mins later we arrive in the country town of Mansfield at 5mins to 7pm to be told that they had just switched of the coffee machines, tuff luck.
Keep driving thru heavy constant rain to arrive home some 8 hours after the start of out two hour trip and go to sleep inside car in our own driveway.

Next morning I carefully watch the voltmeter which is at 12.6v and the car starts instantly.
A 4hr drive and charge must have fixed the problem.

1 hour later I decide to take the car down to a battery place to get a check done, and go to start it and "Click" , no start, not even a whrr! whrr! and the battery volts are still reading 12v.

She's dead in the driveway !

A second spare battery does not start the car either, so being a manual we gingerly tow start the car in the drive (a trick in itself), and do a few tests.

The battery is given a clean bill of health at a test place delivering 840 cranking amps.
With engine running we flick the starter on briefly to listen for grind that indicates the starter solenoid has worked and thrown the starter gear in.

It does, so the only thing I can think of is a poling or stuffed starter motor.

Two Nissan dealers couldn't look at the problem for 3 days so
while we aren't mechanics, and haven't done this before I decide that only chance to get car back for weekend is to give it repairing it myself a go.
So while everyone is at bbq's enjoying the cup race , we fight away with hard to remove bolts and finally the starter motor is out and we pull off the end and it looks like the two lead in brushes are at the end of their travel and contact is intermittant.

I push and prod the brushes and get the motor to turn just once.
I decide that the brushes are so short now that the lead connected to them is at the end of its movement slot and preventing the brushes from further travel, and hence no contact.

Decide that if I was deep in the bush I could file things a bit and get it going enough to start car and rescue myself , so I'm sort of happy.
So after all the false leads, its an almost stuffed and intermittant starter motor that has done 172000km.

Wake up an auto electrican at 7am this morning and leave it with him.
Hears hoping we can get it sorted in time to yet make the Vic gathering this weekend ! , although we might be sporting a few bandaids on the knuckles.

Would be interested in any comments that could have made this diagnosis better or clear up any errors I might have made in above analysis.
Robin Miller

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Reply By: Member - Footloose - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:21

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:21
Robin, I can think of very little that I would have done differently.

A few years ago my starter motor gave a "click" upon turning the key. I was in the Birdsville area at the time, so tried again and no worries. Performed faultlessy right until the main street of Longreach and then "click". Wriggles and jiggled, hit starter motor with a hammer(!) and took it to the auto elec.
Could I wait a few hours ?
I was prepared to wait a few days if necessary!
Went back and he had it out and fixed in 15mts. Apparently a common fault with the 80 series.
It cost me a grand total of ....wait for it.........$30!!!!!!!!!...not a misprint. That's for removal, parts and putting it back in.
Now there's no way that I could have repaired it bushside, as new parts were needed and not easily improvised with what I carried.
I expected to get ripped off. I was a traveller. But old fashioned service along with an old fashioned price ?
What a lovely change !
Here's hoping that this is the last drama before your gathering :)
AnswerID: 333733

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 12:55

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 12:55
Good service all right Footy - mine will probably be $175 for changeover starter , and I'm a little if'y about a changeover.

The auto elec wasn't very complimentary about these Hitachi starters either.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 13:53

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 13:53
Footy, thats the solenoid contacts that would have been replaced. Last set I did on a LandCruiser, the auto electrician was busy, just sold me the new contacts for $15 and suggested I put them in myself, which I did!
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Follow Up By: Member - Footloose - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 13:59

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 13:59
Phil. yep. Them's the ones.
I rekkon it was worth another $15 for him to do it instead of me, especially as I was travelling and not at home.

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Reply By: HGMonaro - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:27

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:27
no real idea about your analysis, sounds pretty good (you didn't buy a new battery in the 1st instance which many would do!) however I have a little story about a starter motor... Had a little Datsun 1200 at one stage which used to regularly not start due to a biuld up of junk on the brushes and the bit (?) they contact with. Thankfully, the starter was easy to get at and I could whip it out, clean it and have it back installed in under 10 mins including washing my hands, this usually accomplished in my work clothes (shirt, tie, trousers) as it usually happened as I was going to work! Ended up putting a new (rebuilt) one in and that did the same thing after awhile.

Nige.
AnswerID: 333734

Reply By: Maîneÿ (wa) - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:31

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:31
Robin,
my interest in your thread is the double bed setup you have built inside your Nissan Patrol.

*What's it like sleeping in the back ?
*Is there good storage (long term) etc ?
*Is there room to get dressed/undressed ?

Mainey . . .
AnswerID: 333736

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 12:52

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 12:52
Hi Mainey

I seriously exploring this issue following on from questions in thread 62562.

It will have to be done right to work , and I would not except any compromizes
so all the little issues will need to be sorted out , e.g. its generally warmer
in the car.

I have had previous setups for kids in car but this is the first time we have actually
slept in this car. The conditions weren't good and we were not setup for rain but
it worked remarkably well except when I get up a couple of times a night and
this time steeped into puddles on our concrete driveway.

Even though we only have old worn out foam for mattresses , the bed was flatter and
more comfortable than most camps we have had.

Still even though this is experimental it has a good chance of working and actually
creating more usable room inside the car.
To achieve this though we will need to change how we pack a bit.

Basically a 1800mm X 1200 can be built inside a patrol with the front seats fully back.

I choose to build 2 1500 X 600mm rectangles out of 20mm angle iron and suspend them from
brackets about 140mm above the floor to provide storage space underneath.
12mm removeable ply panels are the actual sleeping surface.
The front of the 2 single bed frames have fold out 300mm long panels that folds out to where your legs would be
when sitting in the 2nd row seats. Pillows go on these panels and you sleep with feet to-ward rear doors.
This makes it easier to get in and out. As a 200mm gap is left between edge of bed and cars doors.
It also allows for some headroom , I.E. you can sit up in bed and head is just below roof lining.
It also means that you and easily swing sideways, with your feet on the doorsteps and sort of get dressed while sitting up without getting out of car.
Plan will be that each bed can be used independantly and will also fold to simulate crude rear seats.

I.E. if sucessful I will retain all the cars features with about 40kg weight saving and more total volumne, and have a time of under 1 hour to go from having original seats to a sleeping setup.

Little things can make stuff like this not work, or ones wife unhappy and we will live with this arrangement for a while before investing fully in it , either way I will write a full report in the near future.
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:44

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:44
Robin,

I have confidence in you finding this problem where many other would have failed. My question is, are you using some sort of engine diagnostic software/tool/reader thingy and if so what are you using? I have read that Nissan uses different software (?) in their computers hence machines like the scanguage are not suitable.

You know better than most that reducing the risk of being able to get going in remote areas can be extremely handy (if not life saving) and anything to make the diagnosis easier would be worthwhile.

Kind regards

Theo
AnswerID: 333738

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 13:13

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 13:13
Hi Theo

Tend to try and go or basic first principles as far as possible and try and ask myself in context questions , then apply occam's razor (simplest explanation).

These Nissans pre-2005 can't use scanguage unfortunately , but a version of Nissan consult program can be used (costly).

In this case I haven't used anything special for diagnosis , indeed the ecu has logged a permanent fault code , probably no current drawn by starter but I haven't had time to sort this just yet.












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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 14:33

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 14:33
Gday Robin,
I had the same problem with a daughter's pulsar (150,000k) last year. To get her going, I filed the brushes a bit so they sat further down and made contact again. I then shopped around for new brushes (there were 4 brushes in a holder). Too hard to find a match with the aftermarket stuff, but the Nissan parts people looked it up via the VIN number and ordered up a set from Melbourne. Delivered next day - $28 and it was fixed.

Diagnostically, I would have done the same as you. Monitor the battery voltages, and if OK, look at the starter.

Maybe as part of routine maintenance we should remove and check the alternator and starter brushes, contacts and bearings every 150,000k? And brushes and contacts are cheap and easy to replace.
AnswerID: 333752

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 19:41

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 19:41
Hi Phil

I think your suggestion is good idea as per my reply (7) below.
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Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 16:18

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 16:18
Good problem solving.
Didn't check earths first? But then you went straight to the problem.

Like you have an older car.

Just had the starter motor and alternator redone before the last long trip at 300,000k. Originals, not touched.

Yep, bushes in both were right down.

Had a tricky one on the beetle the other day, similar fault to yours.
Hard to start, but could hear the solenoid click.
Found one of the solenoid bolts was loose and not letting the solenoid move the starter motor into full engagement.

Always learning something.
Like reading posts like this to widen the knowledge.
AnswerID: 333766

Reply By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 19:40

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 19:40
YIPPEE!

Definately no claims to being a mechanic here , however we picked up a changeover starter ($170) and installed it in 20 mins flat ,without skinning any knuckles, easy job when you know what you doing.

I had asked the auto-elecs to examine he old one with a view to what might do in the field to prevent being stuck.

On my old unit, the problem was twofold, 2 brushes were gone but also two of the armature bars had fused across.
The auto elec said that cleaning up the armature and making the brushes go in a little further would have been the right approach to get one going again.

After fitting the changeover starter , the car started much better and faster than I'm sure it had for a year , so as per Phils comment above , its probably worth checking every now and again as a preventative measure.


Robin Miller

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AnswerID: 333800

Reply By: Max - Sydney - Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 20:22

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2008 at 20:22
I had a different diagnostic adventure last week. Staying in the Gulgong Caravan Park, around dinner time my wife got big time crook, so I took her into Mudgee Hospital, which after a few hours admitted her. Around midnight, I drove the 30 km back to Gulgong in the 80 series, and 5 kms from Gulgong, the headlights went out.

Dark, like black!

Rapid deceleration until I could see the white line with the parking lamps and found somewhere to pull off. Main headlight relay was stinkin' hot, so I assumed it had burned the coil. Got the Dolphin torch out of the back of the car, and used it to follow the white line back to Gulgong, putting the flashers on for the couple of cars that approached (the lights flashing inside the car were distracting so I did not leave them on).

Next day I moved the caravan to Mudgee, and as you can imagine top priority was diagnosis on my wife, and the plans to move her to Sydney by air ambulance. However, the rule of thumb check of the relay - listen for the click - said that was not the problem. I spent a couple of hours checking fuses, globes, earths etc, all to no avail - then back to the hospital.

Finally, next morning I did the diagnostic thing - tried to bridge the two load contacts in the socket and the lights came on. Yay! Round to Toymotor dealer, whose computer said there were no relays in stock! No worries, the non approved stock (cardboard box under the counter) had one, and in 5 minutes it was in the car! All was well and I had lights for the drive to Sydney on Friday (by which time wifey was in Hornsby Hospital.)

As you said, you can't trust rule of thumb diagnoses every time - looks as if the coil was partly shorted and just did not make contact - but have not had time to do a real good check yet - too busy cooking for the now at home convalescent!!

All good fun! But also maybe a downside of driving with the lights on on open roads - burned out the relay coil in only 12 years and 300,000 kms!

Max
AnswerID: 333811

Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 07:21

Saturday, Nov 08, 2008 at 07:21
Perhaps the great reliability of vehicles these days is lulling us into a false sense of security. We are doing lots more km in a shorter time so we are 'wearing out' some of the components on our vehicles.

Not being critical Robin but I would suggest that we should be doing some preventative mtc and overhauling starter motors and alternators at around 150,000 km if we are likely to be travelling in remote regions.

AnswerID: 334175

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